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You’re listening to the Disability Law Lowdown, Show #17.

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Jacquie Brennan: Welcome to the Disability Law Lowdown. I’m your host, Jacquie Brennan. In today’s podcast, our reporter, Patrick Going, interviews the Better Business Bureau about the application of the Americans with Disabilities Act to the business and about the role played by the national network of ADA Centers. Patrick?

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Katie Carrol: Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining me, Katie Carrol, the public affair show brought to you by your Better Business Bureau. Coming up we’ll talk with Pat Going with the Americans with Disabilities Information Center to learn how the ADA is good for business.

But first, you’ve heard for several years about the BBB and what it does and what we do for our community, but there are still some misconceptions out there. That’s why, beginning this part October, our national organization, which is actually based in Virginia, kicked off a new branding campaign aimed at serving both businesses, you all out there, and consumers because all businesses are consumers and we’re aiming to give you better service in a much more effective way.

What this all means to you is that our members are now referred to as accredited businesses to more accurately and clearly reflect all they must do to join the BBB. I don’t know if you all know this, but not just anybody can join. Every accredited business has to meet and maintain a very strict set of standards which were developed by our national organization and if they don’t comply they are brought before a standards committee and if they don’t rectify the situation they might lose their BBB membership. In fact, to say it kind of roughly or directly, they might get kicked out if they don’t follow these standards and make good.

What does this mean to you guys, the consumer? It means that you can be ensured that these businesses have integrity, they’ve been extensively researched, they have all the proper licensing and bonding requirements if applicable, and that most of these accredited businesses have already agreed to go through a mediation process if you’re dissatisfied with the quality of their service of product. I think that’s something that’s really wonderful. It’s a real commitment on the part of our accredited businesses to, in advance, say they’re willing to work it out and they’re willing to make things right.

You can be sure your BBB is where you can start with trust before making a purchasing decision. There will be more exciting changes in the works which I’ll keep you posted on. Right now, on to our show.

It’s my very happy pleasure to welcome Patrick Going to Insight. Welcome, Pat.

Pat Going: Hello, Katie.

Katie: How are you?

Pat: I’m doing well. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Katie: You look well, I have to say.

Pat: Why thank you.

Katie: You’re welcome. Let’s start first, Pat, by talking a little bit about your organization.

Pat: We’re the Americans with Disabilities Act Information Center, as you mentioned, Katie. And our function is to help people understand what the ADA says and, as importantly, what it doesn’t say. There are a lot of misperceptions...

Katie: As there are with many things.

Pat. Absolutely. I’m pleased to be here to share with you why the ADA is good for business. I think there’s a tendency to say sometimes, “well here’s another federal law that’s going to be a burden”...

Katie: In fact, excuse me for interrupting, but we should say that the ADA or the Americans with Disabilities Act, is a piece of federal legislation. Is that correct?

Pat: Very good. It’s civil rights legislation and that’s a very big distinction.

Katie: Right. What is that distinction? What does that act actually really mean?

Pat: Well, civil rights, as all our civil rights laws say, is all about equality meaning that this is a win -win.

Katie: I’m for equality.

Pat: Exactly.

Katie: Who would admit, “I’m not for equality”?

Pat: When you start out from that perspective, you realize this is nothing more than nor discriminating against people with disabilities.

Katie: Exactly. How do you describe people with disabilities? What’s the definition that you all use?

Pat: It is a mental or physical impairment that substantially limits one or more of life’s major functions. That was a real mouthful.

Katie: That was a real mouthful.

Pat: But it’s important to realize that it’s both mental and physical...

Katie: So it’s not just you’re hit by a car and can’t work and don’t have the capacity or physical ability. It’s also the metal aspect.

Pat: Very much. That’s a large component, quite frankly.

Katie: I would think so.

Pat: What I think we really try and emphasize is this is so much more than just about people who use wheelchairs.

Katie: Right.

Pat: Sometimes we just focus on that and it’s much much more.

Katie: I think we do. I think it’s important that your organization, and wonderful that your organization is communicating the message to people that the ADA is much broader than that.

Pat: That’s right. When we look at numbers, it really is pretty overwhelming. In the United States, there are some fifty million people, so this is approximately every one out of six.

Katie: Yeah, I think it’s eighteen, almost twenty percent of the population have a disability.

Pat: That’s right.

Katie: That’s huge!

Pat: It’s huge and it’s a segment of our population that does not, that is not exclusive. If somebody doesn’t have a disability, going home from work tonight in an auto accident, they could have one.

Katie: Absolutely. A lot of my listeners know I fell off a horse taping our TV show about four months ago and it has been a major impact on my life. I’m still recovering from that. I don’t think it’s going to make me disabled, but it sure is a challenge, so... My point is this can happen to anybody at any time.

Pat: That is right. With our aging population, that we know is very significant with the baby boomers...

Katie: Isn’t it something like by 2030 there are going to be almost seventy-two million baby boomers over the age of sixty-five?

Pat: That is right and that seventy million over the age of sixty-five.

Katie: What that means is there’s a much higher percentage of people in the United States that could possibly have disability, isn’t that right?

Pat: Absolutely. Unfortunately, as we get older, as all of us can relate to...

Katie: Oh, we don’t! Not you. Not me.

Pat: ...some things don’ t work quite as well. We walk a little bit slower. A disability that is overlooked sometimes is hard or hearing and deafness. We look at younger people with iPod buds in their ears, listening to loud music and unfortunately they are going to have hearing issues later in life.

Katie: Wow, that’s really interesting. I always felt bad for myself that I don’t have an iPod, but now maybe I don’t.

Pat: You’re very fortunate. Hearing is really something that relates to acoustics. In one respect, that generated the captioning that we see on our TVs.

Katie: Yes, exactly.

Pat: Originally for people that were hard of hearing and deaf.

Katie: Let’s talk a little bit about the mental side. I’m not sure, as you just pointed out a few minutes ago, most people think about disabilities as people in wheelchairs. But let’s talk a little bit about what would be classified as a mental disability. Would that be depression or...

Pat: Absolutely. Depression, dyslexia, difficulty in reading, many learning disabilities are so severe that they would rise to that threshold of being a disability. There are ways to help accommodate someone with a learning disability in college and so forth so they can still learn and get that education that’s so important. Depression is a big one.

Katie: I would think so. There’s such a high percentage of people who have been diagnosed with depression or major depressive disorder in the United States that it’s shocking. There’s a huge population.

Pat: There’s a real stigma, unfortunately, that is oftentimes attached to that.

Katie: Absolutely. I hope that’s going away because they are beginning to actually now to use diabetes as a model for depression; that it’s just an imbalance in the body, a biochemical imbalance. As diabetics take insulin to regulate their sugar levels, soon there are going to be inoculations and shots for people with depression to equal our their serotonin or norepinephrine or dopamine levels just like diabetics.

Pat: I did not know that. You always learn something new in this field.

Katie: Yes. Yes. This is something that I’ve done stories on and learned and I was very happy for the people I know who have depression because it’s so debilitating.

Pat: Yes. I like what you say. There’s a medical reason for this. It isn’t that someone is weak or doesn’t have character.

Katie: Weak, yes, or crazy or, you know, weird. It’s a biochemical condition and in fact a lot of changes are going to be happening. I just happen to know about depression, but that may also be with some of the mental issues the ADA handles, as well.

Pat: The mental disabilities are, of course, are some of the more challenging because they are what are called the hidden disabilities. It’s not obvious to someone.

Katie: Right. You can look at me and say, “hey, she looks great” but I could be severely depressed or have dyslexia.

Pat: That’s correct. Bruce Jenner is an example of someone with severe dyslexia that really had to overcome that challenge. The decathlon athlete.

Katie: Of course. I remember that cutie.

Pat: When we look at the actual numbers, out of the fifty million approximately twenty-five percent fall into the mental disabilities. So it’s a large component.

Katie: That is a significant amount.

Pat: We have a lot of information that helps people accommodate someone with a mental disability be on the job.

Katie: Oh, that’s important so they don’t have to not work.

Pat: Absolutely. That’s so important for many reasons. It affects our self-identity many times and there’s the financial.

Katie: Exactly. You have information for people. We’ll give out the website again at the end of the program, but just right now I want to share with you it’s adainformation.org. Is that correct, Pat?

Pat: Yes, adainformation, all one word.

Katie: There’s also an 800 number I want to give. 1 (of course)- 800-949-4232. Is that right?

Pat: That’s correct.

Katie: I’m a little dyslexic, by the way, with numbers. That’s difficult for me to say. Actually, I’ve pretty much overcome that, but I can identify with dyslexia and people who have that condition. Let’s get back to what you all do for people with disabilities. Actually what services do you provide?

Pat: Well several things, but first of all we’re funded by the Department of Education.

Katie: Okay, great. Who’s the Secretary of Education these days?

Pat: Who’s the Secretary of Education? It’s Margaret Spellings.

Katie: Spellings? How appropriate! Isn’t that great? Okay. I should know, but...

Pat: She has been there for several years now so she’s the Secretary heading up the Department of Education. So, we help people understand what their rights are, somebody with a disability. We offer suggestions on appropriate accommodations.

Katie: Is that living accommodations?

Pat: More job, work site accommodations.

Katie: That the work site needs to provide, by law should provide?

Pat: That’s right. That’s called a reasonable accommodation.

Katie: Because there are some older buildings that don’t have access, for instance we’ll go back to the wheelchair thing, but it’s not wheelchair accessible. Right?

Pat: That is right.

Katie: So instead of telling people to overhaul or do gut renovations of their space, they’re asking for reasonable access, is that correct?

Pat: Very much. Oftentimes it is an adjustment to the physical environment like making doors more easily managed, having parking places designated for someone who has difficulty walking.

Katie: Why do they still use the term “handicapped parking”? Shouldn’t it be “disability parking”?

Pat: Boy, you’re right on. It really is called “accessible parking”.

Katie: Okay, that’s the politically correct way. Remember that, you guys. Accessible parking. You shouldn’t park there if you don’t really have a disability.

Pat: We sometimes try and not put too harsh an edge on it, but when you say “handicapped parking” you’re saying there’s something wrong with that person.

Katie: I interviewed a wonderful woman with a disability who had lost both her legs from an illness and many other things and she actually doesn’t even considered herself disabled yet the person who was describing her kept calling her handicapped. I could see the fire in her eyes. She was so angry at that so she made the point of saying, “I don’t even consider myself disabled.” She’s a real inspiration, but let’s just remember that, you all.

Pat: That’s right. They use the word handicap in two places, the golf course and the race track. That’s it.

Katie: (laughing) That’s it. You guys know about golfers. Those that are really into golf have a handicap and that determines how good of a player they are.

Pat: Yeah. So it’s accessible parking and I’m really glad you brought that out. The reason that’s important is that we want to identify people as a person. They’re not handicapped; they are a person with a disability.

Katie: Absolutely. That doesn’t define the person and who they really are.

Pat: Correct.

Katie: Just like we shouldn’t let our careers define everything of who we are, but that’s often very difficult to do.

Pat: Well said. We talk with businesses, we talk with architects...

Katie: Do people come, sorry to interrupt you, people come right into your office?

Pat: We really enjoy folks visiting our office.

Katie: You do? Can I have that address?

Pat: It’s 3630 Sinton Road. Sinton Road is at Frontage Road between Filmore and Garden of the Gods.

Katie: Oh! So you’re right near here. RIght near our studios.

Pat: Very much. We’re in the 6th and Gebbings Building.

Katie: Oh, I know exactly where that is. You can all see that from I-25 when you’re heading north.

Pat: Right. We’re in that building.

Katie: So you don’t mind people just coming in?

Pat: Quite frankly, it’s very refreshing. We get tired of just being on the telephone and answering emails.

Katie: You like to see the people in person? Did I say that right?

Pat: We have so many resources. We’ve been doing this for fifteen years. So much, if you can get the right resources to people, it helps demystify and it gives them the tools to do the right thing. Like I mentioned before, so much of our materials are all free so folks are welcome to come in. We have actually four people on staff who know American Sign Language so if someone is deaf and comes in we’re able to help them also. That’s a real nice thing to be able to communicate that way.

Katie: That’s terrific. What about people who are blind?

Pat: Big issue. Just a real quick fact. People who are legally blind or completely blind are three times the greater number than people who use wheelchairs.

Katie: Okay. Listen to that, you guys. So really realize that disabilities encompasses, or the term disability encompasses so much more than we, than I thought.

Pat: Right. So when you get into visual impairments, you address issues like large print which is eighteen point type, you get into lettering that is called tactile which is raised letters...

Katie: Is that Braille?

Pat: No, Braille is unique. Braille is those dots that is, quite frankly, a bit of a dying art.

Katie: Okay. Boy am I out of it. I must have read Helen Keller too recently.

Pat: Actually, of people who are blind, only five percent can read Braille now.

Katie: Okay, the other one is called again...?

Pat: It’s called tactile lettering. It’s raised lettering.

Katie: Tactile lettering. Yes. Like embossed.

Pat: Exactly. That’s a better term. With out aging population, oftentimes folks will find themselves with diabetes and they can have visual impairment.

Katie: Macular degeneration.

Pat: That is exactly right. Some of these reading issues, audio books from the library, these are all real important ways to deliver the information. We help people find those resources.

Katie: Okay, and you point them in the right direction. Can you also, can people going to your office find out what the employers obligation is to accommodate them?

Pat: That’s right. We have good information. Here again, I think we take the fear factor out because it is so much about serving the customer, having good employees, and we can really address that. The ADA is not a burdensome law. It’s not like OSHA where somebody has to do it no matter what the cost. It’s very much the difference. It’s good business, quite frankly.

Katie: It is good business. In fact, we’re going to talk in a minute about why it’s good for business. And now, I just want to know if somebody walked into your office, is the information confidential?

Pat: Absolutely!

Katie: Do you follow the HIPA regulations?

Pat: Which regulations?

Katie: The HIPA.

Pat: We don’t but it’s similar. Everything is confidential. I’m so glad you asked because that’s important. We have actually been contacted sometimes when there are lawsuits, unfortunately, and they’ll want to know information, if somebody has contacted us and we absolutely do not share any of that information.

Katie: Not with the employer? Not with the insurance company?

Pat: That’s right.

Katie: You’re totally, would you call it a totally safe environment?

Pat: And that opens the communication because our objective is to come up with solutions.

Katie: Right. We know the problem and you’re into the solution.

Pat: That’s right. And if somebody is concerned whatever they might say or express is not confidential then you lose that communication.

Katie: Absolutely! I mean I wouldn’t go, I wouldn’t tell. Knowing something is confidential is so essential. I just think it’s so important. And we need to feel free to go, people with disabilities need to go and feel free to tell their actual truth and get some of their misconceptions cleared up and learn how they can better function in society.

Pat: I had a business contact us and self-identify that they have a problem in the parking lot...

Katie: Oh! Wonderful! So they’re pro-active, some businesses.

Pat: They are and we immediately assure them that their identifying a problem won’t trigger somebody showing up at their doorstep saying, “okay, you’re in big trouble.” Quite the contrary.

Katie: Right, it sounds like it’s not a punitive kind of, it’s not a punishing organization. It’s much more helpful and about serving humanity.

Pat: Right.

Katie: Okay, let’s talk quickly, actually we’re almost out of time, I can’t believe it, here’s so much to cover, how the ADA is good for business.

Pat: Well, the ADA, first of all, points out to everyone what a large percentage of our population has disabilities.

Katie: Almost twenty percent. I think it’s eighteen.

Pat: Exactly, and smart businesses will serve their customers with disabilities in several ways.

Katie: And serve their employees.

Pat: And serve their employees. As our population is aging and people are retiring, we can actually project, there is going to be a gap for good employees in the not too distant future. So making reasonable accommodations, there’s that adjective in there, let’s keep our employees productive and working as long as they want. So it’s good business.

Katie: It is good business. As you said, it’s good for the customer who may have a really wonderful relationship with the employee, and it’s good for the employee because we all, most of us, need to earn a living. Is there a definition of reasonable?

Pat: Well...

Katie: I know. That’s the twenty-four million dollar question, or I guess these days, the twenty-four billion dollar question.

Pat: It is a tough one because reasonable accommodations varies with who is to provide those. Now, if you’re a ma and pa grocery store, you don’t have a lot of profit margin to make major costly adjustments where Intel or IBM quite frankly has a higher threshold. But I would point out that fifty percent of the reasonable accommodations that are needed cost fifty dollars or less.

Katie: Wow! That’s really low!

Pat: Very low. The biggest accommodation that is needed to keep somebody productive in the workplace is flex time.

Katie: Flex time being...?

Pat: Flex time is flexible. If I need two hours at lunch to go to a doctor’s appointment, that I’m able to make that adjustment in my work. I submit that almost all companies are incorporating flex time to help people with parent-teacher conferences or to get to the soccer game or take care of a family member.

Katie: Is that true?

Pat: This is exactly the same thing. We say that flex time is already there and that is usually all a person with a disability needs in order to maybe have a little longer lunch time, if indeed they need some quiet time, if an insulin shot is needed to be taken.

Katie: Right.

Pat: So it’s nothing more than what you’re already doing.

Katie: It seems so easy, though I haven’t really known that many people or that many organizations that have those accommodations, to be honest. Is that something that’s happening more and more?

Pat: The person with the disability has made the adjustments that they really don’t need much done. They just need to overcome that they’re not going to be a burden.

Katie: I guess what they can do, if there isn’t that philosophy in place, or ideology or knowledge, they can go to you and perhaps you contact the employer?

Pat: Yes. And we actually have disability etiquette sessions that help people.

Katie: Disability etiquette. What a lovely phrase! That businesses can go to to learn more about it.

Pat: Free resources.

Katie: Pat Going, it’s been a delight to talk to you. You guys, to learn more about today’s show you can call 800-949-4232, that’s 800-949-4232 or visit their website at adainformation.org.

That’s our show for today. Hope you enjoyed it. Remember, the BBB doesn’t endorse any business or organization.

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Jacquie: Thanks so much to Patrick Going and the Better Business Bureau. We hope you enjoyed the podcast.

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The Disability Law Lowdown is brought to you by the Disability Business Technical Assistance Centers which are a network of ADA Centers that provide training, technical assistance and materials on the ADA and other disability-related laws. Funding for the Centers is provided by a grant from NIDRR, the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research.

You can subscribe to the Disability Law Lowdown at our website, disabilitylawlowdown.com or on iTunes.





The Southwest and Rocky Mountain ADA Centers are part of a program of Independent Living Research Utilization at TIRR - Memorial Hermann in Houston, Texas, and is funded by the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research. If you have questions about disability law or would like to request materials or training, please call 1-800-949-4232. This podcast is protected by the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial No-Derivative-Works 2.5 License. For more information and transcripts, visit www.ada-podcast.com.