You’re listening to the Disability Law Lowdown, Show
#17.
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Jacquie Brennan: Welcome to the Disability Law
Lowdown. I’m your host, Jacquie Brennan. In today’s
podcast, our reporter, Patrick Going, interviews the
Better Business Bureau about the application of the
Americans with Disabilities Act to the business and
about the role played by the national network of ADA
Centers. Patrick?
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Katie Carrol: Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining me,
Katie Carrol, the public affair show brought to you by
your Better Business Bureau. Coming up we’ll talk
with Pat Going with the Americans with Disabilities
Information Center to learn how the ADA is good for
business.
But first, you’ve heard for several years about the
BBB and what it does and what we do for our community,
but there are still some misconceptions out there.
That’s why, beginning this part October, our national
organization, which is actually based in Virginia,
kicked off a new branding campaign aimed at serving
both businesses, you all out there, and consumers
because all businesses are consumers and we’re aiming
to give you better service in a much more effective
way.
What this all means to you is that our members are now
referred to as accredited businesses to more
accurately and clearly reflect all they must do to
join the BBB. I don’t know if you all know this, but
not just anybody can join. Every accredited business
has to meet and maintain a very strict set of
standards which were developed by our national
organization and if they don’t comply they are brought
before a standards committee and if they don’t rectify
the situation they might lose their BBB membership.
In fact, to say it kind of roughly or directly, they
might get kicked out if they don’t follow these
standards and make good.
What does this mean to you guys, the consumer? It
means that you can be ensured that these businesses
have integrity, they’ve been extensively researched,
they have all the proper licensing and bonding
requirements if applicable, and that most of these
accredited businesses have already agreed to go
through a mediation process if you’re dissatisfied
with the quality of their service of product. I think
that’s something that’s really wonderful. It’s a real
commitment on the part of our accredited businesses
to, in advance, say they’re willing to work it out and
they’re willing to make things right.
You can be sure your BBB is where you can start with
trust before making a purchasing decision. There will
be more exciting changes in the works which I’ll keep
you posted on. Right now, on to our show.
It’s my very happy pleasure to welcome Patrick Going
to Insight. Welcome, Pat.
Pat Going: Hello, Katie.
Katie: How are you?
Pat: I’m doing well. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Katie: You look well, I have to say.
Pat: Why thank you.
Katie: You’re welcome. Let’s start first, Pat, by
talking a little bit about your organization.
Pat: We’re the Americans with Disabilities Act
Information Center, as you mentioned, Katie. And our
function is to help people understand what the ADA
says and, as importantly, what it doesn’t say. There
are a lot of misperceptions...
Katie: As there are with many things.
Pat. Absolutely. I’m pleased to be here to share
with you why the ADA is good for business. I think
there’s a tendency to say sometimes, “well here’s
another federal law that’s going to be a burden”...
Katie: In fact, excuse me for interrupting, but we
should say that the ADA or the Americans with
Disabilities Act, is a piece of federal legislation.
Is that correct?
Pat: Very good. It’s civil rights legislation and
that’s a very big distinction.
Katie: Right. What is that distinction? What does
that act actually really mean?
Pat: Well, civil rights, as all our civil rights laws
say, is all about equality meaning that this is a win
-win.
Katie: I’m for equality.
Pat: Exactly.
Katie: Who would admit, “I’m not for equality”?
Pat: When you start out from that perspective, you
realize this is nothing more than nor discriminating
against people with disabilities.
Katie: Exactly. How do you describe people with
disabilities? What’s the definition that you all use?
Pat: It is a mental or physical impairment that
substantially limits one or more of life’s major
functions. That was a real mouthful.
Katie: That was a real mouthful.
Pat: But it’s important to realize that it’s both
mental and physical...
Katie: So it’s not just you’re hit by a car and can’t
work and don’t have the capacity or physical ability.
It’s also the metal aspect.
Pat: Very much. That’s a large component, quite
frankly.
Katie: I would think so.
Pat: What I think we really try and emphasize is this
is so much more than just about people who use
wheelchairs.
Katie: Right.
Pat: Sometimes we just focus on that and it’s much
much more.
Katie: I think we do. I think it’s important that
your organization, and wonderful that your
organization is communicating the message to people
that the ADA is much broader than that.
Pat: That’s right. When we look at numbers, it
really is pretty overwhelming. In the United States,
there are some fifty million people, so this is
approximately every one out of six.
Katie: Yeah, I think it’s eighteen, almost twenty
percent of the population have a disability.
Pat: That’s right.
Katie: That’s huge!
Pat: It’s huge and it’s a segment of our population
that does not, that is not exclusive. If somebody
doesn’t have a disability, going home from work
tonight in an auto accident, they could have one.
Katie: Absolutely. A lot of my listeners know I fell
off a horse taping our TV show about four months ago
and it has been a major impact on my life. I’m still
recovering from that. I don’t think it’s going to
make me disabled, but it sure is a challenge, so... My
point is this can happen to anybody at any time.
Pat: That is right. With our aging population, that
we know is very significant with the baby boomers...
Katie: Isn’t it something like by 2030 there are
going to be almost seventy-two million baby boomers
over the age of sixty-five?
Pat: That is right and that seventy million over the
age of sixty-five.
Katie: What that means is there’s a much higher
percentage of people in the United States that could
possibly have disability, isn’t that right?
Pat: Absolutely. Unfortunately, as we get older, as
all of us can relate to...
Katie: Oh, we don’t! Not you. Not me.
Pat: ...some things don’ t work quite as well. We
walk a little bit slower. A disability that is
overlooked sometimes is hard or hearing and deafness.
We look at younger people with iPod buds in their
ears, listening to loud music and unfortunately they
are going to have hearing issues later in life.
Katie: Wow, that’s really interesting. I always felt
bad for myself that I don’t have an iPod, but now
maybe I don’t.
Pat: You’re very fortunate. Hearing is really
something that relates to acoustics. In one respect,
that generated the captioning that we see on our TVs.
Katie: Yes, exactly.
Pat: Originally for people that were hard of hearing
and deaf.
Katie: Let’s talk a little bit about the mental side.
I’m not sure, as you just pointed out a few minutes
ago, most people think about disabilities as people in
wheelchairs. But let’s talk a little bit about what
would be classified as a mental disability. Would
that be depression or...
Pat: Absolutely. Depression, dyslexia, difficulty in
reading, many learning disabilities are so severe that
they would rise to that threshold of being a
disability. There are ways to help accommodate
someone with a learning disability in college and so
forth so they can still learn and get that education
that’s so important. Depression is a big one.
Katie: I would think so. There’s such a high
percentage of people who have been diagnosed with
depression or major depressive disorder in the United
States that it’s shocking. There’s a huge population.
Pat: There’s a real stigma, unfortunately, that is
oftentimes attached to that.
Katie: Absolutely. I hope that’s going away because
they are beginning to actually now to use diabetes as
a model for depression; that it’s just an imbalance in
the body, a biochemical imbalance. As diabetics take
insulin to regulate their sugar levels, soon there are
going to be inoculations and shots for people with
depression to equal our their serotonin or
norepinephrine or dopamine levels just like diabetics.
Pat: I did not know that. You always learn something
new in this field.
Katie: Yes. Yes. This is something that I’ve done
stories on and learned and I was very happy for the
people I know who have depression because it’s so
debilitating.
Pat: Yes. I like what you say. There’s a medical
reason for this. It isn’t that someone is weak or
doesn’t have character.
Katie: Weak, yes, or crazy or, you know, weird. It’s
a biochemical condition and in fact a lot of changes
are going to be happening. I just happen to know
about depression, but that may also be with some of
the mental issues the ADA handles, as well.
Pat: The mental disabilities are, of course, are some
of the more challenging because they are what are
called the hidden disabilities. It’s not obvious to
someone.
Katie: Right. You can look at me and say, “hey, she
looks great” but I could be severely depressed or have
dyslexia.
Pat: That’s correct. Bruce Jenner is an example of
someone with severe dyslexia that really had to
overcome that challenge. The decathlon athlete.
Katie: Of course. I remember that cutie.
Pat: When we look at the actual numbers, out of the
fifty million approximately twenty-five percent fall
into the mental disabilities. So it’s a large
component.
Katie: That is a significant amount.
Pat: We have a lot of information that helps people
accommodate someone with a mental disability be on the
job.
Katie: Oh, that’s important so they don’t have to not
work.
Pat: Absolutely. That’s so important for many
reasons. It affects our self-identity many times and
there’s the financial.
Katie: Exactly. You have information for people.
We’ll give out the website again at the end of the
program, but just right now I want to share with you
it’s adainformation.org. Is that correct, Pat?
Pat: Yes, adainformation, all one word.
Katie: There’s also an 800 number I want to give. 1
(of course)- 800-949-4232. Is that right?
Pat: That’s correct.
Katie: I’m a little dyslexic, by the way, with
numbers. That’s difficult for me to say. Actually,
I’ve pretty much overcome that, but I can identify
with dyslexia and people who have that condition.
Let’s get back to what you all do for people with
disabilities. Actually what services do you provide?
Pat: Well several things, but first of all we’re
funded by the Department of Education.
Katie: Okay, great. Who’s the Secretary of Education
these days?
Pat: Who’s the Secretary of Education? It’s Margaret
Spellings.
Katie: Spellings? How appropriate! Isn’t that
great? Okay. I should know, but...
Pat: She has been there for several years now so
she’s the Secretary heading up the Department of
Education. So, we help people understand what their
rights are, somebody with a disability. We offer
suggestions on appropriate accommodations.
Katie: Is that living accommodations?
Pat: More job, work site accommodations.
Katie: That the work site needs to provide, by law
should provide?
Pat: That’s right. That’s called a reasonable
accommodation.
Katie: Because there are some older buildings that
don’t have access, for instance we’ll go back to the
wheelchair thing, but it’s not wheelchair accessible.
Right?
Pat: That is right.
Katie: So instead of telling people to overhaul or do
gut renovations of their space, they’re asking for
reasonable access, is that correct?
Pat: Very much. Oftentimes it is an adjustment to
the physical environment like making doors more easily
managed, having parking places designated for someone
who has difficulty walking.
Katie: Why do they still use the term “handicapped
parking”? Shouldn’t it be “disability parking”?
Pat: Boy, you’re right on. It really is called
“accessible parking”.
Katie: Okay, that’s the politically correct way.
Remember that, you guys. Accessible parking. You
shouldn’t park there if you don’t really have a
disability.
Pat: We sometimes try and not put too harsh an edge
on it, but when you say “handicapped parking” you’re
saying there’s something wrong with that person.
Katie: I interviewed a wonderful woman with a
disability who had lost both her legs from an illness
and many other things and she actually doesn’t even
considered herself disabled yet the person who was
describing her kept calling her handicapped. I could
see the fire in her eyes. She was so angry at that so
she made the point of saying, “I don’t even consider
myself disabled.” She’s a real inspiration, but let’s
just remember that, you all.
Pat: That’s right. They use the word handicap in two
places, the golf course and the race track. That’s
it.
Katie: (laughing) That’s it. You guys know about
golfers. Those that are really into golf have a
handicap and that determines how good of a player they
are.
Pat: Yeah. So it’s accessible parking and I’m really
glad you brought that out. The reason that’s
important is that we want to identify people as a
person. They’re not handicapped; they are a person
with a disability.
Katie: Absolutely. That doesn’t define the person
and who they really are.
Pat: Correct.
Katie: Just like we shouldn’t let our careers define
everything of who we are, but that’s often very
difficult to do.
Pat: Well said. We talk with businesses, we talk
with architects...
Katie: Do people come, sorry to interrupt you, people
come right into your office?
Pat: We really enjoy folks visiting our office.
Katie: You do? Can I have that address?
Pat: It’s 3630 Sinton Road. Sinton Road is at
Frontage Road between Filmore and Garden of the Gods.
Katie: Oh! So you’re right near here. RIght near
our studios.
Pat: Very much. We’re in the 6th and Gebbings
Building.
Katie: Oh, I know exactly where that is. You can all
see that from I-25 when you’re heading north.
Pat: Right. We’re in that building.
Katie: So you don’t mind people just coming in?
Pat: Quite frankly, it’s very refreshing. We get
tired of just being on the telephone and answering
emails.
Katie: You like to see the people in person? Did I
say that right?
Pat: We have so many resources. We’ve been doing
this for fifteen years. So much, if you can get the
right resources to people, it helps demystify and it
gives them the tools to do the right thing. Like I
mentioned before, so much of our materials are all
free so folks are welcome to come in. We have
actually four people on staff who know American Sign
Language so if someone is deaf and comes in we’re able
to help them also. That’s a real nice thing to be
able to communicate that way.
Katie: That’s terrific. What about people who are
blind?
Pat: Big issue. Just a real quick fact. People who
are legally blind or completely blind are three times
the greater number than people who use wheelchairs.
Katie: Okay. Listen to that, you guys. So really
realize that disabilities encompasses, or the term
disability encompasses so much more than we, than I
thought.
Pat: Right. So when you get into visual impairments,
you address issues like large print which is eighteen
point type, you get into lettering that is called
tactile which is raised letters...
Katie: Is that Braille?
Pat: No, Braille is unique. Braille is those dots
that is, quite frankly, a bit of a dying art.
Katie: Okay. Boy am I out of it. I must have read
Helen Keller too recently.
Pat: Actually, of people who are blind, only five
percent can read Braille now.
Katie: Okay, the other one is called again...?
Pat: It’s called tactile lettering. It’s raised
lettering.
Katie: Tactile lettering. Yes. Like embossed.
Pat: Exactly. That’s a better term. With out aging
population, oftentimes folks will find themselves with
diabetes and they can have visual impairment.
Katie: Macular degeneration.
Pat: That is exactly right. Some of these reading
issues, audio books from the library, these are all
real important ways to deliver the information. We
help people find those resources.
Katie: Okay, and you point them in the right
direction. Can you also, can people going to your
office find out what the employers obligation is to
accommodate them?
Pat: That’s right. We have good information. Here
again, I think we take the fear factor out because it
is so much about serving the customer, having good
employees, and we can really address that. The ADA is
not a burdensome law. It’s not like OSHA where
somebody has to do it no matter what the cost. It’s
very much the difference. It’s good business, quite
frankly.
Katie: It is good business. In fact, we’re going to
talk in a minute about why it’s good for business.
And now, I just want to know if somebody walked into
your office, is the information confidential?
Pat: Absolutely!
Katie: Do you follow the HIPA regulations?
Pat: Which regulations?
Katie: The HIPA.
Pat: We don’t but it’s similar. Everything is
confidential. I’m so glad you asked because that’s
important. We have actually been contacted sometimes
when there are lawsuits, unfortunately, and they’ll
want to know information, if somebody has contacted us
and we absolutely do not share any of that
information.
Katie: Not with the employer? Not with the insurance
company?
Pat: That’s right.
Katie: You’re totally, would you call it a totally
safe environment?
Pat: And that opens the communication because our
objective is to come up with solutions.
Katie: Right. We know the problem and you’re into
the solution.
Pat: That’s right. And if somebody is concerned
whatever they might say or express is not confidential
then you lose that communication.
Katie: Absolutely! I mean I wouldn’t go, I wouldn’t
tell. Knowing something is confidential is so
essential. I just think it’s so important. And we
need to feel free to go, people with disabilities need
to go and feel free to tell their actual truth and get
some of their misconceptions cleared up and learn how
they can better function in society.
Pat: I had a business contact us and self-identify
that they have a problem in the parking lot...
Katie: Oh! Wonderful! So they’re pro-active, some
businesses.
Pat: They are and we immediately assure them that
their identifying a problem won’t trigger somebody
showing up at their doorstep saying, “okay, you’re in
big trouble.” Quite the contrary.
Katie: Right, it sounds like it’s not a punitive kind
of, it’s not a punishing organization. It’s much more
helpful and about serving humanity.
Pat: Right.
Katie: Okay, let’s talk quickly, actually we’re almost
out of time, I can’t believe it, here’s so much to
cover, how the ADA is good for business.
Pat: Well, the ADA, first of all, points out to
everyone what a large percentage of our population has
disabilities.
Katie: Almost twenty percent. I think it’s eighteen.
Pat: Exactly, and smart businesses will serve their
customers with disabilities in several ways.
Katie: And serve their employees.
Pat: And serve their employees. As our population is
aging and people are retiring, we can actually
project, there is going to be a gap for good employees
in the not too distant future. So making reasonable
accommodations, there’s that adjective in there, let’s
keep our employees productive and working as long as
they want. So it’s good business.
Katie: It is good business. As you said, it’s good
for the customer who may have a really wonderful
relationship with the employee, and it’s good for the
employee because we all, most of us, need to earn a
living. Is there a definition of reasonable?
Pat: Well...
Katie: I know. That’s the twenty-four million dollar
question, or I guess these days, the twenty-four
billion dollar question.
Pat: It is a tough one because reasonable
accommodations varies with who is to provide those.
Now, if you’re a ma and pa grocery store, you don’t
have a lot of profit margin to make major costly
adjustments where Intel or IBM quite frankly has a
higher threshold. But I would point out that fifty
percent of the reasonable accommodations that are
needed cost fifty dollars or less.
Katie: Wow! That’s really low!
Pat: Very low. The biggest accommodation that is
needed to keep somebody productive in the workplace is
flex time.
Katie: Flex time being...?
Pat: Flex time is flexible. If I need two hours at
lunch to go to a doctor’s appointment, that I’m able
to make that adjustment in my work. I submit that
almost all companies are incorporating flex time to
help people with parent-teacher conferences or to get
to the soccer game or take care of a family member.
Katie: Is that true?
Pat: This is exactly the same thing. We say that
flex time is already there and that is usually all a
person with a disability needs in order to maybe have
a little longer lunch time, if indeed they need some
quiet time, if an insulin shot is needed to be taken.
Katie: Right.
Pat: So it’s nothing more than what you’re already
doing.
Katie: It seems so easy, though I haven’t really
known that many people or that many organizations that
have those accommodations, to be honest. Is that
something that’s happening more and more?
Pat: The person with the disability has made the
adjustments that they really don’t need much done.
They just need to overcome that they’re not going to
be a burden.
Katie: I guess what they can do, if there isn’t that
philosophy in place, or ideology or knowledge, they
can go to you and perhaps you contact the employer?
Pat: Yes. And we actually have disability etiquette
sessions that help people.
Katie: Disability etiquette. What a lovely phrase!
That businesses can go to to learn more about it.
Pat: Free resources.
Katie: Pat Going, it’s been a delight to talk to you.
You guys, to learn more about today’s show you can
call 800-949-4232, that’s 800-949-4232 or visit their
website at adainformation.org.
That’s our show for today. Hope you enjoyed it.
Remember, the BBB doesn’t endorse any business or
organization.
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Jacquie: Thanks so much to Patrick Going and the
Better Business Bureau. We hope you enjoyed the
podcast.
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The Disability Law Lowdown is brought to you by the
Disability Business Technical Assistance Centers which
are a network of ADA Centers that provide training,
technical assistance and materials on the ADA and
other disability-related laws. Funding for the
Centers is provided by a grant from NIDRR, the
National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation
Research.
You can subscribe to the Disability Law Lowdown at our
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The Southwest and Rocky Mountain ADA Centers are part of a program of Independent Living Research Utilization at TIRR - Memorial Hermann in Houston, Texas, and is funded by the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research. If you have questions about disability law or would like to request materials or training, please call 1-800-949-4232.
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